Maiden (MHLD) 28 Feb 182017 Q4 Earnings call transcript

Good day, ladies and gentlemen, and welcome to the Maiden Holdings' Fourth Quarter 2017 Earnings Conference Call. [Operator Instructions].

As a reminder, this conference is being recorded. I would like to introduce your host for today's conference, Bill Horning, SVP, Investor Relations.

You may begin.

morning. good and Glenda, Thanks, Thank you XXXX Maiden's Quarter today joining Conference Call. us Earnings on Fourth for Presenting call our Executive Officer; on Maiden's along Raschbaum, the with today we Karen Schmitt, Chief Officer. Art Financial have Chief attendance Ltd. in Maiden today President Haveron, Also of Pat Reinsurance is

I and or to company's note future begin, These performance to with refer the time that these report and XX-K the here future annual information that files risks statements reports you uncertainties forward-looking materially statements like subject or We to to the of are on and could time company. the and projections cause financial events on Form contains Form other Securities company would results expectations. XX-Q. current quarterly the from differ are regarding we our actual and the to presented number Before Exchange today future expectations based on documents the events of a specifically from Commission,

about release, today that as the fourth Art. the well Some the that, I'll share and for With and comparative and those basis, Maiden's in with XXXX GAAP to our over the references Please call to refer discussions non-GAAP our diluted will measures a in Relations information Maiden's period will to common of certain our unless news results corresponding all note that otherwise SEC stated, XXXX. relative today's company's comments operating measures found also on share both turn data to in are in quarter discussion to to our may as metrics will financial of based filings reference on reconciles include the be Investor and performance website.

joining thank us and you call. Bill, you, Thank today's for for

from observed diversified and then we've now, development, auto elements in segment. adverse from initially responded of our reserve line interest aiding the segment and commercial various the and quarters to U.S. loss many For

The year, have emergence we quarters, objective the focused the more clearly in to we previous reserve seen beyond. quarter amount XXXX the fourth our of activity $XXX the of on have most quarter in development responding our disappointing aggressively that quarter, forward significant with -- are and quarter the $XXX we for the of million restoring AmTrust emerging fourth in was the from results million, in profitability fourth full with development for the the on emanating segment. and While particular, XXXX recognized loss and total The of the focused AmTrust segment. amount in recognized

Worker's primarily observed years. we've underwriting the elevated As U.S. across we've XXXX the emergence, casualty auto loss levels predominantly, lines, liability in previous and XXXX commented of through quarters, and including Compensation, in general

however, a believe, the of movement, In at the adjusted remain basis. more segment an our our prior past development claims commercial commercial previous we the Our in quarter, loss terminated we loss auto activity previously accounts, reserves, due we claim was was increased of more quarter, conservative view account portfolio, the to observed management. specific interest could average Despite of to case two emergence. loss which more excess years, dominantly similarly on trading was Unlike and and level the seven the on reviews as and last $XX significant the on profitable a to quarter. continue underwriting of more the of conservative explain two much accounts development million these inception-day Diversified adverse account where development systemic operational focused client fourth primarily in elevated observed auto does the period to assumptions development in this the outlook. recognize movement continued In observed chose we which, reflect further to observed of much confirm improvement, all development

reserve process necessary. claims accounts, those significant of For one has in case been -- strengthening client's the

for second development. the in and third-party has late turn, reporting claim administrators the adverse in loss reliance While account, on driven

identify Despite more to the development was, much significantly both better been this intention be underwriting to excluding certain act to development recent final operational accounts most absolutely more in profitable One confidence. will commercial aggressive reaction diminished of portfolio the XXXX, be that loss enables year, we're of results, expectation in as Overall, not unexpected processes recognized This and emerge, response underwriting also is these development Maiden's more important adverse adverse future that respond conservative we loss client investor changes both enhanced auto, quarter to faster focused development and settlement, as is a is we've the prior response well auto quarter underwriting to years. and throughout and Operationally, believe activity. development. in stability the of in since that to sooner. that We the is absolutely the in performance triggered and commercial catalyst note has years by Our the in recent returning our react will while enhanced was development. to can uncertainty, this have again, to observed size. investor loss a impact Historical impacting our to fourth profitable. Diversified manner. never quarter profitability We elevated in development to regarding recognized on the

we million net year favorable loss trends, say, provides but Maiden to development We Karen cover there on a accounting more will benefit last adverse annual and structures of of in the Strategically, the number detail benefit $XXX shareholders. we and a which well that will of track see transaction provide as our to Notwithstanding that potential the believe Diversified in XXXX. believe months, performance several we on in over But XXXX. have concluded that recently quarter we full little cost profitable are development, a real the of its is portfolio needless as growth number impact evaluated are the loss unacceptable. to results.

this see to form to flat our by of decisions technology-oriented clients due told, on quarter leverage Nordics significant our in U.S. in the several period Diversified to in potential finally, adjustments partial a actively of and risk premium Despite -- in is the from enjoy anticipate were some continued to a the involvement business has predictive development. has service relationships. management, auto first that growth the insurance AmTrust component segment full share, our in client these fourth the made XXXX. with activity, their substantial and client And interest written reflecting with and are of we the should we growth in that many to some Overall, of the we we the positioned capital were efforts client discipline, particularly our and adverse reduction strong, growing XXXX, which experience focused branded been to from there moderation very Internationally, negotiate see for X. balance, efficiencies, and competitive relationship, pressures. businesses. commercial affinity continue this benefit operating AmTrust environment, of programming business, a segment. and run the opportunity year-on-year feed introduce number in Diversified impact the the our as their in rate a year account pressures, providers our of January premiums observed Reinsurance continue to in reduction gross and XXXX. personal growth Solutions IIS, expected Liability continued the both Overall, we new as the product continued an growth modest translate growing is European even revenue believe sector. competitive enhancing nonrenewal and the which affected well well U.S. in our strong new of bound, to We're some created quarter experienced decline see addition segment, a continued working be number will did Maiden and year-on-year a IIS payment-protection in in previous will in segment, proceeds the enhanced initiatives essentially reflects year on new stated in to that Germany. renewal we of quarter. writings on enhanced Affinity sector, a a expect to in Capital the as that opportunities a signing business. Hospital focus cost the loss insurance in analytics, gross distribution. Business, For will discipline enjoyed business, written, small-account growth was Clients, organic In due Early reunderwriting sale very insure-tech significant revenue, European modest onetime for for a desire clients we strong with reduction more post our pressure the January growth On in pricing of premium, the successful of existing new favorable significantly or continue All new the strengthening activity past, [indiscernible] restructuring the in reflecting auto in certain underwriting following

will as balance As would capital available options shareholder at enhance to mix the This look the help that AmTrust we also between required over will overall occur, segment segments. certainly and all should we've better the indicated, value, to for drop Diversified the time.

to private. know, recently plans AmTrust shareholders company founding you the their As announced take

such our While could some that some by acquired -- there have from we been plans Maiden underway. no for speculation currently be has similar shareholders, founding

income investment our rate continue XXXX. equity will earnings current quarter. now Finally, grow to share, like operating call details that as achieve for income the with more portfolio, Karen on detail, loss I'd per returns will on only to expected more reflected underwriting more our XXXX. double-digit to our run believe Within can we importantly, turn Karen enhanced provide in conservative also in we nominal Karen? ratios the initial who over and

you, morning. Thank good and Art,

$X.XX per attributable per common common loss compared at share. Maiden's otherwise or non-GAAP shareholders outset references non-GAAP Last diluted in of share data common a share share. attributable a The $XX diluted $XXX periods this loss quarter today's loss refer the $X.XX fourth to net Bill in Maiden on $X.XX fourth was year loss to million quarter stated, with operating share relative share to million XXXX recorded shareholders full the $X.XX and compared $XX to of will XXXX comments per common the results night, to or million diluted XXXX. said are comparative common a of net all $XXX of or or per call, million operating and of corresponding to unless common As basis,

X.X%. common For per with Maiden loss a Gross the shareholders of income net of XXXX. $X.XX $X.XX XXXX XXXX written written in Net XXXX, $X.XX to share compared $X.XX an common billion to XXXX. or XXXX were million in diluted billion. reported were [indiscernible] premiums compared X% in earned to $X.XX $X.XX billion share $XX of billion, premiums full by billion increase in operating from premiums attributable year in non-GAAP increased Net

year, premiums interest the For compared The in year. Diversified written and reinsurance $X to the totaled from both gross million unchanged in segment, the just prior were XXX.X% ratio essentially XXXX for XXX.X%. combined billion under $XXX

ratio the higher XX.X% loss in Diversified is XXX.X% ratio combined driver XXXX, XX.X%. XX.X%, ratio last For was and and ratio the XX.X% with expense was XXX.X% combined for AmTrust segment's XXXX. development year. to compared of the in is the to full as in And the compared the Adverse increasing same ratio segment from the in year, X.X%, XXXX. XXX.X% The to the combined reinsurance general XX.X% versus year, was ratio main the administrative expense the

our premiums due written $XXX fourth Affinity just-concluded million, were the the a the Diversified were a the restructuring a segment, million X.X%. in written business, totaled the unchanged $XXX quarter. last Maiden's decrease premiums on gross million, again, a gross $XXX quarter decrease Reinsurance year, of weaker premiums a in million to well as large European few quarter AmTrust $XXX nonrenewals from accounts. of of essentially in Reinsurance of year compared gross premium the fourth quarter In programs earlier as year. from underwriting segment, last In once fourth primarily written to XX.X%, Focusing,

lower to program to growth AmTrust to business. expect quarters relative in see volume continued previous We moderation from due

XX.X% combined Diversified estimates, of X% fourth Diversified following last was as the future. quarter premiums the earned the foreseeable segment fourth the last adverse segment outpace quarter, expect an totaled development Net in by million XXX.X% adverse lesser the million, primarily increase in Commission reserves quarter written development development, to expenses $XXX extent, year. premiums in Reinsurance for AmTrust ratio AmTrust quarter a $XXX in strengthening quarter and were third XX.X% $XXX totaled to from an million. growth Absent to $XX adverse million. fourth were for general prior storm $XX the We XXX.X% growth to due the quarter of and the that impacted the segment ago. fourth compared fourth Accordingly, was general ratio in in have the in quarter reinsurance acquisition the in The quarter year. in The been to last increased should the AmTrust $XXX the and The compared Net segment, was X.X%. was million versus workers' loss segment segment due other million, the ratio quarter the to one XX.X%. an expenses of cat $XX $XXX fourth The year. quarter's combined impacted ratio segment ratio to million liability with combined an In and results combined million, increased million. combined XXXX. to the in premiums $XX to increase year. would expense of Reinsurance liability. quarter were down reduction quarter, ratio the loss XX% the were fourth increased and Diversified net compared year's of XXX.X% Reinsurance of the declined fourth commercial development, ratio year fourth the and X.X% the activity. to increased compared X.X%. to XXX.X% X.X%. Net adverse expenses by million XXXX in earned fourth in same auto G&A The and XX.X% fourth of AmTrust net a to In ratio quarter $XXX million in XXX.X% last compared segment net General comp totaled compared increase XX.X% Diversified segment X.X% Diversified of the in Reinsurance XXX.X%, earned Reinsurance administrative the fourth administrative The quarter. loss-adjusting in fourth premiums $XXX The

the reflecting the securities rates Excluding in with XXX.X% the AmTrust to we weighted the improve, X.XX% years. was booking quarter, fourth to adverse have the X.X been added combined for results Maiden's fixed a net and XXXX as In by billion XX quarter, at years. excluding duration additional an Investment Investment segment the total $XX an invested time same-investment of including to fourth assets, X.XX purchased our this year. X.X Investable in The the with average liabilities year-on-year investment manager cash, segment portfolio, by investment quarter same development, of $X.X year and X.X%. strategy increase increased million, within ratio and income current average would of higher yield the were to of as December X% the duration assets a the years average income cash, continue fourth an compared XX%. result, duration grew yields of XX%. the of income of million, grew for on our of $XXX

million to billion of $XXX event in value at December shares $X.XX Our dislocated per fourth an $X.X $X.XX during $X.X at book long-standing were shareholders. buy a our shares $XXX to shares Maiden at share buy investment billion was Maiden irrationally $X.XX brought September on to XXXX. shares average XX. were opportunity and equity repurchase year-end by Cash government-sponsored compared million at it XX common Shareholders' and is December million plan the shares corporate equivalents billion value an remains average cash shares opportunistically million has full from the assets end share. the with $X.XX viewed in value compared debt time common per Total to year back billion place capital share focus XX security. active price XXXX. $X.X a the discountable repurchases of of repurchased high-grade significant repurchase compatible creates market official common from the had from generally share. a the of share fourth at we at Book price as the structure $X.XX, back to program. We've per prior our had But back value. at Maiden for In was value quarter. that when of to of the buy at down total X.X quarter, maintaining not efficient time, end at our company year. $XX.XX This -- may Maiden's an is common to compared

tax affiliates, Addressing recent non-U.S. share, reinsurance million share the XX, had between thus announced to current our XX. common quarterly per taxation $X.XX U.S. release December of board new As repurchase dividend, -- will April regulations the affiliates. last operating we and payable common approximately And in our remaining also our on as an night, subject taxation we reform, cash $XX the our press affiliate authorization. in authorized

were changes some While for Bermuda significant relationship changes to these and transactions believe it companies. be neutral that not P&L. between worse may to us, be We contractual will our U.S. these there reinsurance our

Finally, we a our delayed. are first in completing the process of part of

with is XX-K that clean now Form I will Art will expectation comments. will Our turn some on a tomorrow. we to no over the have time weaknesses, we our and file additional that material opinion call for

Thank you, Karen.

Before market we particularly overall on lower-volatility in improvements business the secure that market conditions. add of competitive, where to were year-on-year overall a my rate services lines are market to we some a perspective, typically On in in U.S. are incremental the like remaining primary From balance, most see of remarks, on well market comments I'd right-level our necessary. improvements monitoring rating reinsurance able closing levels reporting There number segment.

where account well performance earlier, nonrenewal. a in subpar mentioned of as are number there resulted as competitive However, accounts as I pricing pressure

to market, and year, in As number significant and we're customer typically indiscernible seeing do optimistic opportunities time the portfolio U.S. this developing of we're chances about a expand base. we the of and

we've area of our of quite well experiencing auto greatest we're are demand opportunity some markets in of time. lines. health Solvency growing and Internationally, accident from of are to as some markets, that coming seen see strongest demand the significant solutions we capital our continue fact, as Europe. European across implementing personal outside business level The also and activity for a In II

base, a While we're number our found account. we both contracts will starting small written active that and our from relatively a increase claim premiums new substantially of

competitor some flow. continued we're support developing bifurcated the in a differentiated We Now the with focus market relationships while the in to a to stable set cost loss which expect key being solutions our somewhat deal pricing more customized pricing insurer business overall, see strong affinity we continue transactional several pressures, our companies in insulated market finding environment that capital structured markets. favorable affinity of see in Maiden carefully more are we The on differentiate. do is business, we that opportunities good remains for And solutions. unique for pricing trends the from highly market of IRS primary observed competitive, success maintain and and finally, fairly affinity in market,

expect premium focus, bound operating our increase number believe efficient We remain a opportunities number of additional our written powerful with fourth solutions to from differentiators. highly reinsurance in of Maiden, that in to in developments. niche a significant value-added our continue we market our see a programs the Across new collateralized quarter and differentiation, platform

position taken XXXX, believe Maiden look in ahead to we fourth profitability. the As a to for return we steps quarter the

in magnitude While can quarter. variation do taken some we've of emergence, actions anything always level not of the fourth in the expect there loss be of the we

believe profitable measure we're realistic. returns returning We stable shareholders premiums results. even modest and double-digit underwriting underwriting equity forward, to and strong that produce with our ability to on overall is focused for Going performance profitability, our on more

our process further implemented, actively investment to run base asset to have to lines prepared We're has as always, you But the engaged of invested importantly, aimed solutions Maiden that performance strengthen and creative support the customers. have deliver answers? best And to has appreciate We're at been reserve the value greater team the shareholders. strongest security, to also value necessary the questions is open value. develop capital customer our notwithstanding also to needs. and the implement continued This deliver and actions concludes and our we our we're remarks. efforts and strategies committed and grow that clients initiatives and for our to strengthening in also strengthened. could committed reinsurance their to Our whatever reunderwriting continued rate sincerely Operator, please do income ensuring efforts for

comes line Securities. And Matt from from JMP Instructions]. of the [Operator question our first Carletti

worse guess, how reserve going us earlier add back taken saw in put what Art, QX I in with quarter. it in the QX, to little here and in you it. emergence loss at a of actually the the back questions. than thought give of, conservatism starting you addition saying, Two just of, was you've looking that, to additional how that year X a was actions to much level you behind that you with the versus the of related QX? was an and part a quarters conservatism "We're much better what us adding Can alluded move for forward." and we kind of good expected just feel kind was in maybe looking saw to, level to And it higher at

organization, when Karen change would accelerating Thank Yes. that. result I'll claims of kind turn the emergence one Matt. is loss of it things to of about from case claim reserving. process a some in I effect is -- that say a for the seen be of could It emergence accelerating place We've taking over in closer. you, could of could But result details. -- It's

past. emerged we way Karen, quarter, viewed time But if And everything that to developmental, turn take have changes. we is more than those the time, which it tried you. over to So essentially from it in assumptions was the the from I'll have, process to we the adjustments conservative in that

quarter, out that we number. the feel every our best number putting we're Matt, Yes, is

reverse expect at and average comes operational there higher we in case that changes, we when time start reserves, when to -- changes the the However, a see look we data. those

increase looking That higher to a that segments of development in in reserves. of has the We development not case we're still of because all the the at. see lot than happened expect rather lower

So on AmTrust know is altogether. as conservative that could case versus kind we chunk most to But it's are look, And we out. really of, that on of done good more there much looked I issue -- to what play we conservative. split I not of changes. kind had higher complicated the establish felt we don't had in book. just you, for at, what will needed because a I than that more think significant reserves diversified be that we would've identify is ultimately of our we're operational it's trying those book, And our perhaps, more where of the very the

cap And part are along being little And reference to a I XX-K, this from Understood. business. lines, detail? those explain Can to some a ratio we in or at close the ways point you that still their effectively the are for that part of loss it? that away of know, we there's on in business,

those XX.X% segment, of at to including The for XX% program comp years. goes most is Yes. the cap loss workers' and in That ratio. ratio starts loss

not business. we before that still So things the into an with We quarter. hit is if But that protection have amount up we that quarter. really incur flow we would -- some are from it

just had of a then quick And Okay. ones. couple

A.M. I to feeling, any the there that guess, has how about or the you terms on downgrade, went rating those impact with if would it they're With of a dialogue how result And prospects downgrade? in you're along come the quarter, feeling see about for business? in been how maintaining lines, capital to away, Best a your or of rating a chances were a

details rating not say, as liberty We're to question. Obviously, constant regulators. No, we've activity the with our a with well in certainly, risk as we're I'd of seen, discussion. that's all a our a fair at agencies dialogue downgrade. the our communicate of constituencies, there's of kind of

think is done they're important to obligation for ultimate. the an this model days, expected the pre-Maiden And clients. is in and differentiator -- collateralized since we've collateralized our business full I we've

very at to We a business. change and because process. level an we've many able us A that to time no remained as focused repeatedly, operate committed we've of of an longer so a have collateral. grow still A- at and Obviously, build level, customers than that and had we in operated the period for And were we company see that

relationship, and comfortable, Now some there and but had some be prospects some a obviously, And just -- it a there noise we've if creates others, rating, downgrade. may strictly I is challenge, that by think less I think, that as for strong collateralize everything no are the and future continue full-value customers those add to to do limiting value collateral see power long-standing, continue and our -- we'll our ability We establish in nothing ensure them. well. will to to obligations

So that's hope a for fair that. answer

that what understand given think to Yes, to last press they assume reason give need of, the that dividend the absolutely. going could, is also, the Obviously, forward, a would updated is And dividend. kind $X.XX you point. said of night, sustainability that one, saw items. past any change if you at And quarter this the in But results noncash-type quarter the there happened? would be and of these what's release just I declared last I around obviously, thoughts the board it that and

Clearly, in occur as decision is the quarter $X.XX a dividend in quarter. what would as is what issue than the much reflection the to expected

think there at to the to I the quarter-to-quarter, be the year, going strengthens I should, their our took we that confidence in felt to ability They looking decision. in that end to everything continue restored we and looking capital performance 'XX. at power look the I strengthen is they and quarter-to-quarter the do will first motivated have a a profitability actions they We're comfortable, think ensure that to in and provide based dividend, our our power beyond, business as trends. and in on sort at, that is it at profitability And but of the underlying the earnings of the of, decision. think quarter it

question B. comes next line Binner Riley from from our of Randy And the FBR.

was So primarily it press in one at my in of related. -- charge all, -- on guess, share, the I attributed well, the release, it said point you AmTrust the perception that first quarter

this So in quarter that AmTrust $XXX the totaled the million. would be charge share

I workers' you think that press and release, think comp. GL. the the some was it size workers of point workers' primarily said, comp the in Can $XXX it's I million? But it at call then heard in comp element that I

general comp Workers' was $XX of of about total, was the the million total. million and about Yes. liability $XX

those the pieces year. So are Those largest the X X the are for also for QX. pieces biggest full

And activity in feature work not been correct? comp not that share I and previously, had correctly? reserve that running They're notable, of a quarter

moment, this and the remember, some been not its reserve. largest largest for has block is it our Well, our small of but piece There's largest sure. been line

So a movement prior in proportion, very definitely small it's in quarters. been

definitely So more substantial. is this X

think, Karen, it million if up, previous for quarters, another there the was comp, full that workers' I of fair? in is total roughly year, $XX you

fair. yes, Yes, that's

So in there has this quarter. been [indiscernible]

in then in of to the 'XX that, 'XX And accident was years? that all

Predominantly.

Predominantly.

X% ratio kind of you And workers' accident what is it moving for seeing loss years? up development or X%? Like, or in those X% are comp

I you. going Yes, don't to have that to think have get right I with the, in to me were back

can off-line. up follow we Well,

Okay.

helpful. So that's

guess, understand what's I I the changing So again? say though

XXXX which super of -- the but not does by include the I magnitude years, again, [indiscernible] underwriting said, as moments obviously, even portfolio, amount Kevin business, especially was into assumed going but... were those to years, say, given the to it XXXX the of dramatic, movement,

And significant -- it's line, those a get I largest a be our it's Yes, huge numbers. big business, but going enough. can to can not it we -- is it's

more more of the over up just that to operating. follow I kind can we on off later. jumping guess, Okay,

and scalable should stated returns operating mentioned business, that that going could Maiden that overhead which about expenses, more assuming of as of, premium base? I believe they of forward they expenses AmTrust I potentially lower and its intend significantly possibility, that to could a how be how be kind So you think don't

will earnings know, income stay price you Well, on they the on generate edition some We're right? of invested sheet. liabilities, asset certainly time, base. our balance not continue chunk Because to contemplating, those our good a for would as pretty it's

potentially that suggested I if have So clearly, adjust. like with ability I think amounts been to the XX% and something -- that heard the forward have that

And look be to had we are to dramatically structure, our honest, So I our expense observant think actively rationalization structure. we at that's going a without trajectory. anyway. earnings affecting expense Obviously, to

over have in the we trajectory Diversified, We think be term, balance could that. see think hopefully, hope to we'd expenses I actively working and positive we an reduced a -- some begin offset right expense the those of size. which time, would But certainly improve I to short while that continue So would on relativities. to

X.X% Yes. shirts ratio. In a And the of of segment, units. specifically corporate points just pitching about a order expense to allocate overhead, we we little over then some AmTrust

were a piece But So not to to obviously expense we a allocation a that's little it's AmTrust shrink. that would be if would like the big higher the business have that than point segment. of

Yes.

through the important of expenses other we efficiency the subsidy portfolio. the when The for the point, in the it's the segment. our in business for diversified balance loaded actual the of account not fully AmTrust segment, price We're sharing the

Okay. that And the was liquidity? mean... in then with quarter, holding company from funded the buybacks I

Pardon? Yes.

company But what after is liquidity year and the buybacks? your holding

well. that get to for have to as going you I'm Yes.

one last the questions. guess, I I'm sure other there'll Okay. be

that of, other things would that it, development strategic initiatives expensive kind be come else, is might what too it and what else at? look be you to mentioned it's and You so shareholder adverse

returns whatever is But on That's I we we How we'll at. We would broad. look we value. everything's certainly enhancement the look in forward we I portfolio, to of say have strength and given, at think to I I improve pretty shareholders. time value the the everything confident that proposition can appropriate opportunity what kind to do our can certain the capital of at business think forward enhance shareholder whether potential mean, then were and we results and a think are of and to returns, strong today look while of any of generating it's that allocated allocate, structure. good we to will generate the kind table.

question mere Instructions]. [Operator our the of from from comes KBW. shields And line next

saw bit I incorporating same conservatism reserve some confirm year. you correct, XXXX over segment, the like results, AmTrust I'm we the in talk that the could the guess, is the course the hoping was -- of accident AmTrust year can you It little I into which hopefully those underwriting deterioration about, assuming, excluding charges seems the levels a results? the of

-- raised we the charge, initial wasted interest. was year a we ratio during the at for strengthened our what loss we did expected year, year, We've earlier full Actually, when but Yes. in bit the little actually XXXX. took reserve XXXX, the we

development, the when XXXX what excluding why, for as over prior that's some because XXX. ratio So year It's at still look that elevation well. actually includes through you it's is, so fourth quarter three of QX

as booking that add rate I that, also Diversified to well. And a is as high would

Yes.

Okay.

question, rate, obviously, a was So that [indiscernible]... next those my at lower

look estimate at models, very remember Yes. after anything from have booked Diversified, offense quarter, to made those you point be third of conservative was what turned for It $XX soon what didn't of customers cat. cats. for we the we we ultimately time. all And and at out in a need we reported really million the that may

So ended of to well we million $XX up $XX we booked release million, being able it.

anomaly the quarter. really that's So that in

quarter year full but a cat in fourth really Maiden, the we some reduction for in nonevent So and were basis on a third elevated was then had quarter.

question, makes sense. growth expense so in Diversified? Is going my in last quarter. impact And year-over-year solid then book about That initiatives to perfect. the far first meaningful you Okay, talked the within have ratio the and the that the

No, it shouldn't.

business, own this will. if In our, we than, low, has kind the pretty channel, distribution services similar, of, to I have cost fairly expense of, diversified our third-party its in not much that is division of of, could actually total you it's brokers channel rest the, business. execution with pay don't it business that has our different own the much -- own and but our sort kind relative sort It solutions then the associated of, we -- international produce that think business, is have. capital normalizing

don't and there, are if international there I are where diversified. you I the most things going at I think from look from elements coming -- likely, So think that the great opportunities action, think

average. it G&A or So of, acquisition of, benefit expense, in terms the actually should kind

this the And over turn Horning to I'd closing phone questions lines time. to no showing Bill remarks. at like for I'm further the over call back

for for That Thank day. today. you, joining great call a you our concludes thank us. Glenda. Have We all

the gentlemen, now great program, concludes may participation and day. Everyone, you and in disconnect. This you thank your today's conference. a Ladies have for